Posts by Island Man

22

A woman wearing a head covering in subjugation of men - absolutely mental

by jambon1 in

jw
friends

how did they ever get away with that and how does it go down now, in today's society?.

its fucking mental.

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Island Man

I think the thinking is that a woman's hair is like a natural crown given her. But since a crown would also symbolize authority and women are supposed to be in subjection it wouldn't be fitting for them to be wearing a crown while praying or prophesying because then the crown would imply that they have equal or superior authority to any men around (because women have longer hair). So to avoid shaming the man by having a bigger crown than him while doing a manly role in his presence, the woman has to cover her crown - cover her hair. If she would not cover the crown - her hair - then she should shave it off.

My personal speculation is that the idea that long hair represents authority could have come about by these ancient chauvinists observing that male lions have longer head hair and male chickens - roosters - have a bigger head thingy than the female hens. These observations of larger head pieces in these male animals may have caused them to associate bigger head pieces with authority since they tended to occur in male animal species. But when they noticed it in human females they decided to spin it as being merely a crown of beauty instead of a crown of authority because God wouldn't give women a crown of authority. But just to be on the safe side the women have to cover the head piece if doing a male role so that their crown of beauty can never be misinterpreted as a crown of authority.

22

Who holds the Burden Of Proof?

by stuckinarut2 in

when we as former witnesses wake up and choose to leave the society, it is mainly because we value truth and honesty.. the society tries to make out that we are in the wrong.

that we have "left the truth".. but, who really holds the burden of proof?

do we (who leave) need to prove that the society is not the "truth", or does the society need to prove that it is the "truth".. thoughts?.

Island Man

The burden of proof always rests with the one making the claim, and especially if it's an extraordinary claim.

However, JWs are so indoctrinated that they unashamedly throw logic, reason and critical thinking under the bus, calling it "worldly wisdom", "independent thinking", "satanic propaganda", etc, in their bid to defend their organization and its foolish teachings and policies at all cost. Sam Harris once made this statement (and I'm paraphrasing):

"If someone does not value reason and logic, what logical argument can you use to demonstrate to them that they're wrong?"

I think best way to reach a JW would have to be to first get them to see the value of logic and critical thinking - without bringing up their religion, or even the subject of religion at all. You have to get them interested in the subject of critical thinking and its value in helping one sift truth from fiction. Maybe you can do it in the context of avoiding scams by unscrupulous "worldly" con men and the spin of "worldly" politicians. Then maybe, you can talk about the psychology of those who fall for such scams - how they are denial and make all manner of ridiculous excuses even when shown evidence exposing the scam. You basically have to get them to learn how to spot BS and how to spot the BS excuses by those taken in. Then you can gradually shift over to looking at the members of false religion, highlighting all the kinds of fallacies and excuses that religious people give to defend their continued loyalty to false teachings and false religious organization.

So first, you get the JW to value logic and critical thinking. Next you train him to spot the fallacious coping mechanisms the deceived people use when confronted with the possibility that they've been deceived. Then you relate it to the subject of false religion. Finally, if you think the JW is ready for it, you relate it to his own religion. But this final step is optional. If you do a good enough job with the previous ones, you can probably trust that the JW will figure out this last step on his own.

So JWs have the burden of proof. But we have the burden of logically proving that fact to a group of people who value emotionalism and blind loyalty over logic.

21

Watchtower Study June 18 from April 2017 issue

by BluesBrother in

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-april-2017/judge-of-all-earth-always-does-what-is-right/.

the judge of all the earth always does what is right.

intended as a confidence builder in the organization ..see what you think.. theme is from deuteronomy but it is really highlighting that passage in genesis where abraham had a dialogue with god, (gen.18) would god destroy sodom if 50 righteous men would perish?

Island Man

The Judge Of All The Earth Always Does What Is Right

... except when he doesn't. Like when he condoned slavery - the owning of other human beings as property to be passed on as an inheritance in perpetuity. Like the killing of thousands of innocent first-born sons of the Egyptians for the sin of one stubborn Pharaoh whose heart was made stubborn by God for the express reason of having an excuse to plague the nation greatly so as to make a celebrated name for himself. Like the killing of millions of innocent animals and babies by drowning at the great flood. Like stipulating the gruesome and horrific punishment of being stoned to death for the comparatively mild sins like being a disobedient child or having sex outside of marriage.

5

JWs Gullible & Delusional

by TTaTT4U in

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Island Man

Looking at pictures of the new compound in Warwick, I can't help but think that it looks very much like a prison compound, with the tower looking very much like a guard tower. Think too of the remote location outside the city. One almost gets the impression that it was built with the specific intent of being sold over to the New York Department of Corrections (or whatever the state's prison council is called) in the not too distant future.

32

What was Jesus last name???

by James Mixon in

jesus in hebrew means "savior' and christ in greek means "messiah".

these are identifiers --not names in jesus case.. where did the name christ come from, his parents???

?i can see the name jesus (first name) but christ.

Island Man

Surnames weren't very common in Palestine back then. People mainly had just first names. The closest thing to a surname would be to refer to the person's father, profession or place of residence. So Jesus, if he was a real person, would have been called "Jesus Bar Joseph" (Jesus son of Joseph), "Jesus the Carpenter", "Jesus of Nazareth", etc.

15

Far and away the best video I have seen explaining cults

by jwfacts in

this 5 minute ted video perfectly explains what a cult it.

it does not mention jws, but perfectly aligns with them.

it is put in a manner that would make some understand why jws are considered a cult.

Island Man

"Far and away the best video I have seen explaining cults"

Then you haven't seen bending truth by TheraminTrees:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IaUhR-tRkHY

20

How many JWs would Disassociate if their were no family sanctions?

by Chook in

i think the swamp would empty overnight .

Island Man

I think at least 5% would disassociate. I don't think it would be as much as 50%. But I believe that about 50% would probably immediately stop shunning disassociated relatives, and that number would grow gradually until shunning of disassociated relatives ceases altogether or becomes just the aberrant behavior of an over-zealous minority.

The thing to keep in mind is that there are other repercussions to disassociating, apart from shunning, and heavily indoctrinated Watchtower loyalists will impose these threats even without being prompted to do so by Watchtower. Some are employed with other JWs and risk losing their job. Some would still risk being disinherited. Some would risk being kicked out of the house. Some would risk being divorced on the trumped up grounds of "spiritual endangerment".

For this to really do good, Watchtower would not only have to remove the shunning sanction, but actively teach JWs that it is wrong to shun disassociated ones or punish them in any way. Here's a scary thing to think about: Faced with legal pressure, Watchtower can officially put an end to their shunning policy tomorrow without there being any relief from shunning for X-JWs. They would just have to print something like this:

"In the past God's people have been given repeated Bible-based counsel on the need to "quit mixing in company" with those who are unrepentant sinners, or who renounce their Christian dedication by written word or action. (scripture citations) However, today, more and more governments are concerned with enforcing human rights and rights to freedom of religion. Some interpret our faithful adherence to the scriptures' injunction on not associating with disfellowshipped and disassociated ones as being unduly strict to the point of violating human rights and freedom of religion. Hate laws once used to prevent the verbal incitement of hatred toward minority groups are now being used to restrict persons and organizations from publishing religious direction that the state deems as hateful and/or intolerant. ("framing trouble by decree" scripture citation) How should God's people respond to such developments? Jesus taught his followers to be "innocent as doves but cautious as serpents" (scripture citation). To this end, our publications will no longer feature the direction to quit associating with disfellowhipped or disassociated ones. We no longer give the direction to cease communication with such ones. Of course, true Christians know the Bible's direction on such matters and endeavor to follow their Bible-based conscience regardless of the direction or lack of direction given by any individual, government or organization. ("we must obey god as ruler rather than men" scripture citation)"

15

Why "... when it does touch on scientific matters [the Bible] is accurate" is bogus BS.

by Island Man in

jws and other christians would often point to the handful of the bible verses that seem to be scientifically accurate as evidence of its divine inspiration.

but not surprisingly, they ignore the ones that are scientifically inaccurate, or when they address those verses they put a spin on it like saying the account is not a reflection of what the bible is teaching but what men at the time erroneously believed and which god allowed them to record in the bible.

would you believe a jw actually told me that!

Island Man

JWs and other christians would often point to the handful of the bible verses that seem to be scientifically accurate as evidence of its divine inspiration. But not surprisingly, they ignore the ones that are scientifically inaccurate, or when they address those verses they put a spin on it like saying the account is not a reflection of what the bible is teaching but what men at the time erroneously believed and which god allowed them to record in the bible. Really?! Would you believe a JW actually told me that! She said words to that effect to explain the striped-stick pseudo-genetic mumbo jumbo recorded at Genesis 30:37-41:

"Jacob then took freshly cut staffs of the storax, almond, and plane trees, and he peeled white spots in them by exposing the white wood of the staffs. 38 Then he placed the staffs that he had peeled in front of the flock, in the gutters, in the drinking troughs, where the flocks would come to drink, that they might get into heat in front of them when they came to drink.39 So the flocks would get into heat in front of the staffs, and the flocks would produce striped, speckled, and color-patched offspring. 40 Then Jacob separated the young rams and turned the flocks to face the striped ones and all the dark-brown ones among the flocks of Laʹban. Then he separated his own flocks and did not mix them with Laʹban’s flocks. 41 And whenever the robust animals would get into heat, Jacob would place the staffs in the gutters before the eyes of the flocks, that they might get into heat by the staffs. "

Imagine persons who believed the bible to be the inspired and inerrant word of God living 1000 years ago reading that account. What are they going to think about Jacob's pseudoscience? Are they going to think it's bogus or are they going to think it's legit? Is there any hint anywhere in this passage of god's "inspired and inerrant word" to suggest that Jacob's thinking was faulty - that the bible does not endorse his methods as legitimate? No!

The common way that JW apologists try to get around this inconvenient problem is to point at another text later on where Jehovah speaks to Jacob in a dream and tells him that he has been blessing him. The JWs point to this and say: 'See? it was God who made his share of the sheep multiply and not his method'. The problem is the text does not say Jacob's method was bogus. In fact, anyone trying to tell those christians living 1000 years ago that Jacob's method was bogus, and that it was God that increased his portion of the sheep, can be met with this argument:

"Yes, God blessed Jacob's legitimate scientific endeavors to ensure his success, in the same way that God blesses our legitimate agricultural endeavors to give us a good crop. The methods are still working and legitimate even though God ensures it works - or works even better - by his blessing. So God taking credit for it does not prove it was wholly a miraculous work of God and that Jacob's methods were completely wrong and ineffective."

So there are scientific inaccuracies in the bible - if not deliberate then by virtue of poor communication, by virtue of the fact that the bible does not clarify that Jacob's method was indeed bogus.

9

WMSCOG - Another cult à la Watchtower

by Sanchy in

jw
friends

was reading up on the world mission society church of god, or wmscog for short, a south korean church founded in the early 60s by ahn sahn-hong.

the church has a million+ members in over 100 countries.

they believe in god the father (jehovah) and a god the mother, whom they claim to be a living south korean woman named jan gil-ja.

Island Man

This is great information to have. It can be used to our advantage when unwitnessing to JWs. This church can be used to mirror some of the cult aspects of JWs right back at them. For example, you could pretend to be the friend of an ex-WMSCOG member who is being shunned by his family and ask the JWs if they think it's right what the WMSCOG is doing by telling its members to shun former members. It's a great way to criticize Watchtower practices and get a JW to think about it by pointing the finger at another cult that engages in the same practices.

It might be useful to learn about all the negative aspects of WMSCOG that are similar to Watchtower.

30

Why is the approval of family so important?

by jwfacts in

one of the reasons people remain pimo is fear of losing family.

those that are disfellowshipped and shunned regularly comment about how devastated that they have lost the approval of their parents.. when i respond to emails from people saying how difficult it is being estranged or looked down on by their parents, i would like to say that over time they will come to terms with it, except i not sure that people ever do.

i cannot shake that feeling either.

Island Man

Craving the approval of your group is a basic psychological trait of social species, and there is no more important group than your own family.

Watchtower's admitted use of shunning by family to manipulate X-JWs into returning, actually contradicts Matthew 10:37 which says:

"Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me."

If true disciples are to love Jesus more than family then they should be returning to the fold because of their love for Jesus and not because they crave association with family that is being withheld through shunning. By saying that X-JWs won't return if family associate with them, Watchtower is unwittingly conceding that JWs love family more than Jesus, and therefore it requires taking away their family to manipulate them to return to Jesus. A kidnapper holds family ransom for money because he assumes the wealthy value their family more than money. Therefore, if Watchtower uses shunning to hold your family ransom in exchange for your return to Jesus/their cult, it must mean they assume you value your family more than Jesus/their cult.